I: Can I ask you when you were born? R: 1888. 23rd of August. I: Whereabouts were you born? R: Leyton in Essex. I: And you spent all your early days there, did you? R: No, I was only there for two years. 1890 my father came to Hanwell. I: I see. What was your father's job? R: Well he was a kind of contractor in those days, he did removing, and strictly speaking I don't know how he really came to Ealing because it is quite a distance away. He had his horse and van to dispose of and somehow or other a surveyor, named Charley Jones, quite a nice man. He got in touch with him and said "Well I will give you ten pounds for your horse and I will give you a job". That's a very funny way of doing but that's just how it happened. But apart from that I can't tell you any more, from that point of view. But any case he settled into Hanwell and that was it. I: What sort of house did you have in Hanwell? R: Oh just an ordinary type of terrace house, you know. I: How many rooms were there? R: I don't know, there must have been three - two or three upstairs I suppose and about three down below. I: How many brothers and sisters had you? R: Well we used to crowd a bit then you know, there was seven of us besides Mother and Father. A big family. Pretty regular in those days! But not so today. Not so today. I: Whereabouts were you in your family, were they mostly older or mostly younger than you? R: Well. We haven't been out of Hanwell you know since 1890. Various little places we used to move, in those days you could move from here to there and you know, well you just used to decide - oh well I will go somewhere else - and that was it. I can't tell you the real circumstances, you know, we used to move, the whole family, including the rabbits and the chickens! I: Oh you had livestock as well? R: Oh yes, yes. I: Had you a garden usually? R: No, we had quite a big allotment 40 rods as a matter of fact. 40 rabbits we had, six goats. And that was not too far away, of course it is all built on now and us youngsters, boys, were detailed to look after these goats you know. Well at end of the field was a gravel pit, which was about 15' deep. Well unfortunately one day, when I was on duty, one fell over the face of the cliff! My Dad - he gave me a real hiding! I got so frightened because he left me nearly unconscious - he didn't touch me any more after that! I: I suppose you milked your goats did you? R: Oh, for kiddies, we were more or less brought up on goats milk you know. My father used to dress the skins and somebody used to come along and collect them. And we had rugs, rugs of them. Oh yes. Those six goats, everybody knew them. I: Had you vegetables at all on your allotment? R: Yes, well they provided us with everything we wanted - 40 rods near enough. Of course the land was there then, which it isn't today. But I tell you it's all built on now. Well I have got it all down here as a matter of fact. Originally it was in manuscript, I tell you doctor, he typed these out for me. Kept a copy himself in the reference library. Can stop there, indefinitely, you can't talk about 100 years. Any case, he was more than pleased with them. Very matter of fact language, well I said to him I said don't claim this to be of any literary merit, but as a matter of fact he said "That's just what I want". "We get tired of what they call literary jargon, the same old whatsername. That's somewhat different to what we have been used to" so that suited him. I: Were your parents interested in this sort of thing at all? R: Oh no, this was entirely my own initiative. Yes, I've lived in Hanwell quite a long while, and I thought in 1944, I thought to myself, well I don't know, I have lived in Hanwell so long I think I will put my experiences down, I had seen quite a lot you know - mostly fun you know. I have had a lot of fun in Hanwell. I thought to meself I will put it down on pencil and paper. Well I did, and I tell eventually I added to it, and it’s unique in its way, it’s unique in its way. So far as I know there is nothing like it round about Hanwell. At least I have not met anybody that has been that way inclined. You know it was quite my own initiative. I: How old were you when you started school? R: Oh the usual age of about five I think. I: Which school was it? R: The old St. Marks School down the road there, still in existence, 1855, well over 100 years, one of the old type of primary schools. I: Infants boys and girls were there? R: It stood there, well of course they had the boys section and the girls section, oh yes. I: How many teachers were there? R: Well we had - well if I was to say we had six teachers, you know, girls and boys and of course we had seven standards, that's how we used to classify them, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. The sixth and seventh were combined, the headmaster always took those. Strictly speaking we must have had five or six school teachers. Some were tough and some were not. I: Were they strict on the whole would you say? R: Well, what I can I talk about, were they strict? Well they used to use the cane, but we used to say to ourselves well I suppose we deserved it, and that was it. But strictly speaking I think that they were really good. I: You do? R: Oh yes. I got on very well with them. I: How did you enjoy school? R: Well everything except History. History I wasn't too keen on. I was an expert on map drawing, the headmaster used to get me out the cartridge paper in front of the class and say "That's right, get on with this one" Well if you know anything about the map of Italy or anything like that it's not at all easy when you have got to include the mountains and the currents and so many - in any case I would stand out there on my own and he let me get on with it! Although strictly speaking, well he left it to me. I: Had you games organised at school at all? R: Well in those days we hadn't got the variety of games as what you've got today. Netball was unknown for a start, but er - I: What did you play? R: Oh I played football. Yes, I played football. Yes. There's an old lady still living in Hanwell, I'm hoping to get that photograph that she's got, 1896. Well, that Boys' football team went clean through the season without a defeat and finished up with winning what they call the Dewar's Shield. Dewars, the whisky people, still in existence, well they presented us with a local shield. We won that outright. I think our best season was 1896 - now that's a long while ago. I: You would spend your evenings playing football would you? R: Well, I used to, that is quite true. I: What other sort of things would you do? R: Well. If you are going to talk about hobbies, well there wasn't much then cricket and football and chasing all over the surroundings, you know. Well we spent most of our time out of doors, we did. I: How about in the winter? R: Well in the winter well - from what I remember I used to be very fond of me books. A greater reader in me time, I have always been more or less satisfied I think, more satisfied perhaps than what the youngsters are today. I never chased, what I call chased about. No I was quite content to sit at home with me brothers and sisters, playing with them, or having a game together. I: Had you many books and newspapers in the house? R: Well I gradually built them up myself. I did. I: That was good. R: Yes. I gradually built them up myself. I: Had your father a newspaper? R: Well, we had, there is a paper still running now, called "The People" well we had that one of a Sunday, and "Lloyds News" that was another one. The daily papers well we didn't worry about. If we had a Sunday paper, everybody seemed to be satisfied. Including my father, you know, daily papers we didn't worry too much about. Of course, even the "Daily Mail" has only been running about 60 or 50 years. They are comparatively modern. Those papers weren't in existence. I can't tell you the name of the daily papers then but there certainly wasn't many. But if we had that Sunday paper, well I tell you, "Lloyds News" or "The People" we were quite satisfied for the week. Quite satisfied. I: Had your parents any outside interests? R: Well no. They didn't have much chance. In those days they were busy with the old wash tub. And when they got seven or eight youngsters to look after - you don't want telling that they had a full day! No, they had a full day. R: Year 1890 I arrived at Hanwell at the age of two and went to live in Maunder Road. My first recollection was that my father sold his horse for £10 and obtained employment with Mr. Charles Jones on the Ealing Town Council as a gardener. His chief job was to plant trees in the various roads as they were made up and built over.My father next obtained 40 rods of allotment on top of what was Mr. Charles Macklin's gravel pit which is at present Montague Road. I well remember 1891 the Great Frost when I used to help my sister Nell and brothers to carry water from the stand pipe at the Boston Road end of Maunder Road. My mother used to pay 2d. per bucket from the Council water cart when we could not supply her with enough.Sister May had arrived and we had no water in the house to give her first wash and the person next door could have all she wanted so she took in washing without paying for it.We next moved to Springfield Avenue, opposite where St. Anne's School stands now. They were some of the best times in my life, school days. Things were uneventful until I reached Standard 3 when I received a taste of Mr. ?’s left hand swish of the cane. His son Bert once shied an ink pot at him, and goodness knows what happened when his father got him home!I always thought that Standard 3 and 4 were the most solid learning classes of all in the old national school. Mr. George Harwood was my old schoolmaster in Standard 6 and 7, in Standard 4 I was employed as an expert map drawer. I used to be allowed to exhibit to the class, pinned on the blackboard, maps 3 foot square. I was also an expert in geography as much as anything else.I got a bit unruly towards twelve years of age and I well remember having twelve strokes from Mr. Harwood. At the age of eleven and a half I obtained a job for a Mr. Clarke, greengrocer, Hanwell Broadway, on Saturday mornings, wages 6d.At twelve and a half I went to work full time for him at 3/6d. a week and a basket of vegetables.We used to work on the round in the mornings, afternoons in the gardens and orchards, now the Hanwell Train Depot. We also had geese to take and chickens as our last job every afternoon.I was there three and a half years, all day. My mouth organ was a good companion on a Saturday night when we had a lonely journey to the Old Hermitage next to the Rectory. On Sundays we played what we called Sunday league football and I well remember when Patrol Policeman Mead took our ball from us and we drew names as to who was to go to the police station and collect it. I was unlucky and very timorously went to collect this ball. Sergeant? the Station Master that day, as soon as he saw me said in his manner "What do you want?" I said "I've come for my ball", "Oh, have you, have you" to P.C. Mead "Give him his ball, do the necessary!" whereupon P.C.Mead cuffed me behind the ear with his glove and booted me in the pants and away I went down the steps, ball and all. I never realized that a bobby's glove could hurt so much but I wasn't surprised at his foot. However, Sunday league football still carried on.And I played a good game at left back and finished up at outside left. My brother Alf played fast at centre forward. Mr. Cook, a milkman, had a lovely lot of cows at that time turned out in the field. His son Charlie worked for Owen Bishop, the butcher on the Broardway. One Easter Monday he cut off the curls of a chubby fifteen year old with curls to the shoulder. That got him the sackI well remember the stage coach from Oxford to London. Mr. Frank Spiers was the cab and he always played his posthorn when he arrived at the Brent Bridge which divides Southall and Hanwell. This would signal for his wife to bring him along his dinner or tea. We always ran to meet the coach when we could.At about the same time the horse buses came along. Their stables were in Boston Road, opposite the Victoria Public House. After that came the London United Tramways which were opening in 1902. The cream and blue paint looked very nice but they used to rattle very much.I well remember about 200 Irish navies being employed on breaking up the Main Road. Three men with sledge hammers and I had to hold the peg. I think this is the reason why we have so many Catholics in Hanwell and Irish tram drivers. The next thing I remember was the foundation of the Hanwell and District Horticultural Society. We used to hold monthly meetings and discussions. I still have in my possession a certificate awarded to me for some tomatoes in pots. I also used to show chrysanthemums 13" across.I also grew cyclamens and geraniums.Mr. Seward of Hill Farm, Boston Road, the one time rate collector and I worked for him for fourteen years followed by three years war service. And when I came back Mr. Seward said he would not carry on any longer. Under Mr. Shrimpton, Mr. Sewards's foreman, until he left in 1910, I had a pleasant time in the greenhouses although I worked 70 hours a week.I used to like my trips with him to Crystal Palace to show chrysanthemums and to the Horticultural Hall in Vincent Square to show cyclamens. Mr. Seward also kept thirty cows and seven acres of orchard. He had a very fine Shorthorn bull, a real terror out in the field. He also had a horse which retired at thirty-two years. I: I wondered how you found your first job with Mr. Clark? R: Well, well in the ordinary course, you know what it is, well what used to happen was this. Mum was glad of whatever she could get and I can't really tell how I started that job, it was in a greengrocers shop. Well in the ordinary course we used to drop into a job. I: And you started after leaving school then? R: Oh, I was, yes. Twelve years of age, twelve and half, something like that. The schoolmaster didn't like it, no. He said "All my best boys go" you know. He was very struck with my handwriting. He said to my mother he said "Your boy writes a lovely Civil Service hand, he is too good for what they call a knock about job" you know, but that's what happened in those days and that was it. My Mum was glad of the few shillings. I: Would you have stayed on if you had had any opportunity? R: Well the opportunities, well I won't say that they weren't there. But not to the extent as what they are today. I: Oh no. R: Well when we got to the Seventh Standard, well we used to, you know, go back into work of some description. I: How did you enjoy work? R: Oh I was happy as a kid! Yes. I: The hours were fairly long though, weren't they, with Mr. Clark? R: Eight o'clock till six, something like that. Well they were shop hours then you know. Which is a bit longer than what they are today. I: It is, isn't it. R: You know, of course on Saturday, there was a clear eight to eight. That was in those days, yes. No forty hour then you know, I don't know any trade at all that worked forty hours. Unless it was the, unless it was Whitehall! I: How did you find your next job? You said you moved then. Didn't you? R: I moved into some greenhouses on the exact spot as where you are sitting now! We used to buy our tomatoes from the people that owned these greenhouses and the job was going at some time or another and I got into it. Eventually I did seventeen years in the greenhouses, I took over in the finish. I: What were they growing? R: Tomatoes, chrysanths, cyclamen, and geraniums, that's what we used to grow. I: Who owned them? R: A man named Seward S - E - W - A - R - D. But he was a well known local man then, he was. They also had thirty cows. That street of houses that you see down there, that used to be our paddock. Where the horses and the cows used to be. And you can see the cross road at the top there, well that is as far as the paddock used to go. Seventeen years I was there. Of course the Big War came along, that took up nearly four years of my time, when I came back, well, the Boss was fairly well off, "I am sorry John" he said "But I don't feel like carrying on any more." He said "I will give you £2 a week until you get a fresh job". Well I managed to get on the railway. A chum of mine came along and told me there was a job there. I was 38 at Paddington, as what they call a Railway cellarman, in amongst the wines and spirits. I: He was a good employer, Mr. Seward, was he? R: Yes, all right, yes he was quite good, as they went in those days. I: How many people had he working for him altogether? R: Oh, including the ground pit me, we used to have gravel pits out there, I suppose he had a dozen men all told. Then we had the cowman, who used to look after the cows, and we had the milkroundsman as well. Oh there could have been a dozen of us altogether. I: Quite a decent sized little business. R: Oh it was a business! Well this place, I tell you, this is the exact spot where it stood, where we are now. I: Strange isn't it? R: Yes, I have come back to where I almost started. After sixty five years I have come back. I: Were your parents Church or Chapel goers at all? R: Well strictly speaking I don't remember them being connected with anything much. Beyond that in the Westminster Road, down there, we used to have a Baptist Church, it's pulled down now, it was well over a hundred years old and suffering from dry rot when it was pulled down. Well, we used to go there to Sunday School and my mother used to belong to the Mothers Union. Well that's the only real association that my parents had really with the Church, but you see they didn't force us to do anything at all, you know, just let us carry on. Well eventually, well I got that way, that I attached meself to the Old Parish Church. I: How old would you have been then? R: Yes, the Parish of St. Mary's. Well I was well in everything at the age of 17. Oh yes. Now that's the church out in the fields over there. It is still in existence 1862 that church was. And I spent well over fifty years over there I did. Until I got this side of the parish and my feet turned out to be no good, I found I had to pack it up, and now I can't go there at all much because of the awkward hours. Each time I go over there I am late for either dinner or supper and it puts things out of gear. Well now I go to St. Thomas's just up the road. Yes, that's sixty years I have been attached to that church really. I: Had it anything on the week evenings, any boys clubs or anything? R: Well this is what happened. St. Mary's had a really good boys club. We had, of course we had got the ground then, the ground to play on in those days. And then believe it or not we had eight football teams. I: Gosh! That's huge! R: You couldn't do it today! Eight football teams and three cricket teams. Oh we were satisfied with that. We had got no other subsidiaries. Of course one of the conditions was that we attended the Bible Class, well none of us grumbled about that. Well it was part and parcel of the set up. Yes, we had - I: Quite a thriving concern. R: It was well known in Hanwell, St. Mary's Church Club, oh yes, eight football teams. And well I still carried on playing football after that, you know. And when I made up my mind to get married, I thought meself well I won't take any chances so I packed up playing football, I did three years with the referee's whistle, automatically - you know. I: How did you meet your wife? R: Well er - Her mother became a widow, living at Bangor in North Wales. Mind you there was ten youngsters her mother couldn't cope you see. The result was most of them got scattered about and in those days for a girl, there wasn't much else apart from domestic service. Well she came to London along with her sister and then they went in domestic service. And her sister had got friendly with my brother, I got friendly with her sister, and the result was brothers and sisters got married! So that's all I can tell you about that! 1913 that was. I: They lived round here did they? R: Oh yes. Lived here ever since in Hanwell. I still lived in Hanwell all that time. I was married in that church. Yes. I: Had you saved up a long time? R: Well I did save really. Up to a point. Because I was working seven days a week. You know, seven days a week. {blank} so strictly speaking we couldn't go anywhere much. But I managed to save £90 well that was a lot - you'd be surprised. Well I set up three rooms, quite good, quite good. Yes. £90 well in those days - R: All right wasn't it? R: You can't do much with it now can you? I: Not so much as you could do. R: Yes, I well remember that figure. Eventually the boy and the girl came along, well that was quite good. I: After the war I suppose, that was? R: The girl came during the War. Oh I forget now, 1915 or 16, something like that. And the boy he was quite late, 1925. Well the girl is well over, is 52 now or thereabouts and the boy is 43. Well they're placed pretty well, you know what I mean to say, as placements go, he has got quite a good job at Marconi's. I: I suppose your wife stopped working after she got married. R: Oh yes she certainly did! Oh yes she certainly stopped working then. I: Who budgeted in the house? R: When the War of course continued, she went out to McCleans, down there, she thought to herself "Well I will do my bit" and that was it. McCleans the, you know the people down there. I: Had you much of a social life, music hall or anything like that? R: Well, we had, the nearest one was Ealing Theatre, well that today, well it's gone through quite a number of changes. It went from Ealing Theatre, we used to have some really good straight plays there, you know, the real old fashioned type that, you know, we could sit down and enjoy. 6d. a packet of peanuts and orange peel (?) and this that and the other. Everything went up. But we used to enjoy it. And our regular Pantomime once a year. Dan Leno and Herbert Campbell, two famous old comedians, they used to come, oh yes. Go in at quarter to eight and come out at ten minutes to twelve! Now there's an evening for you! I: Very long. R: If you get two hours entertainment now of a night you have had a long while, haven't you. In any case, well, eventually Ealing Theatre, Ealing Hippodrome, well it was turned into a cinema after that. I: Had you any holidays as children, away from home? R: Well holidays, well in those days we didn't have them. No we didn't. Firstly the wages, and the big families you know, it wasn't really possible. But er there used to be a society in Ealing called Ealing St. Johns Temperance. Well they would run excursions perhaps twice a year, and if we had a day down at the seaside - oh - we had had - our holiday! I: You had had a holiday! R: That suited us, we were satisfied. Strange to relate is we were satisfied. Going down to Worthing or Margate or somewhere. Oh yes. I: Had you Sunday School outings at all? R: Yes, we had our regular Sunday School outings, but believe it or not, well we never went any distance really, mostly out to Richmond Park, to the other side of Richmond Park, or somewhere down there, that was our school outing. Well the different tradesmen used to have horses and vans, and they would take us in these horses and vans. That's how we used to - our Sunday Schools. We never went by train on our Sunday School outings, no, we didn't do that. These horses and vans, the different tradesmen would come along and collect us up, perhaps 50 of us, and we would have the usual races and this that and the other. You know, what you have at a kiddies Sunday School outing. We were satisfied. I: Had you any spending money as children? R: (Big laughs) Well if we had sixpence I suppose we were lucky. Oh yes, yes. I: I suppose you would spend it on sweets would you? R: Well, sweets and what we used to call the Hokey Pokey man, he would come round with a barrel on a Sunday. No, - I: How about after you started work, I suppose you handed your wage over to your mother did you? R: Well I did, but I think I had about sixpence of it back! R: Well we were quite happy you know really, we were doing out bit. Of course Mother always used to buy our clothes. Whatever we wanted. Oh yes. I: How about after you were married, I suppose your wife was in charge of the household budget was she? R: Well that is quite true. Quite true. Yes, she was always good. Well to tell you candidly people say "Oh why do you do it?" or "Why did you do it?" I used to hand my wage packet over just like that. (Slapped hand on table!) I: Well if she could do it, that was okay. R: I never went short. She knew just how the money went and it suited me you know, it didn't worry me a bit. If I wanted a shilling or two for pocket money, well it was there. Yes. It didn't worry me a bit, once I had handed that over, well we used to take the week right through, well we got through life all right. I: Well that's the main thing. R: I did it for forty-three years. I: A long time. R: Well that was all right, I let my wife have it, you know, whatever there was there, that was it. Oh yes, it never worried me a bit, as long as the money was in the home, I was satisfied. And the kiddies didn't go short. I: Were your parents strict with you as children? R: Well not really, I can't say that they were strict. Although my father had got the old fashioned strap! When we wanted the strap we had it! I supposed we deserved it and that was it. I: What sort of things were you punished for? R: Well I tell you, the biggest hiding I had was when I let the goat fall over the cliff. Yes, I never had a bigger hiding than that. No. They was all right. They was all right. He died in 1914. But they was all right. And I don't remember a more even tempered man in all my life. Very, very seldom saw him in what I call a rage. If I can finish up like him well I will be satisfied. I will be satisfied. I never known a more even tempered man. I: Would you say that your parents were comfortably off? They weren't well off? R: No, not really. No. My father was only in the 30/- stage. No, we weren't well off by any means. Oh no no. I: You never went short though did you? R: No, not really. I tell you we always had the vegetables to fall back on. We never had to buy them. Well my mother, to be quite candid about it, went for the cheapest cuts, and she knew how to dish it up. Well in those days you could get, what they called a four-hock of bacon, eight pounds, that was the weight of it. Well it was only 4d. a pound. What would you pay today? R: An awful lot more. R: That 8 lbs, that covered all our family and there were quite a lot over, oh that was a real bargain job that was. If we had a hock of bacon there was nothing more tasty than that. Nothing more tasty than that. I: How many times a week would you have meat? Every day or just - R: I believe so. Yes, we never went without a mid-day meal, not really. Us kids used to come home and it was always there. It might have been in the nature of a stew or something like that, but never mind it was always, as far as I know there was always a big meal about. I: Would your father have his mid-day meal with you or would he have a meal in the evening? R: Well he used to take his daily sandwiches with him, you see, for mid-day, and come home to a meal at night. I: Would you actually see much of him then, if he was working long hours? R: Well I don't know what his job was, cos this was in Ealing, not in Hanwell, he worked in Ealing. As the road was what we call "adopted" made up by the council, him and a chum, Jack Smart, used to plant the trees all through the borough. Every road that was made up in Ealing my father planted the trees, and anybody grumbling about the leaves in October - well they better blame my old Dad for that. But now we have got a new Superintendent, or Director of Parks, he decided that all these big trees have got to come down, and now they are planting flowering cherries. Quite young ones, they'll grow up you see. The old big trees that you can see in the roads now, you can see them outside there, well they are a thing of the past. I: You told me that you were 1 of 7 children? R: Quite true, 7 in the family I: I wonder if you could tell me the order of the children and the spaces between them. R: Well, not a great lot, takes a bit of working out. I: Have you any idea how old your father was when you were born? R: I can work that out. He died at the age of 72. I: So he was 42 when you were born? R: Yes. I: You told me that before you moved to Hanwell he'd been a contractor. Do you know if he had any other job before he became a contractor? R: Oh, yes, he was a head gardener to Claybury Hall in Essex. Now that's an enormous great mental home, now. run by the L.C.C. As far as I know he had 16 gardeners under him there. I: And that was before he became a contractor? R: That's right, before he branched out on his own. I: Did he ever do any casual or part-time jobs? Besides his main… R: Well, of course, a contractor was more or less … you know what I mean. I: I know what you mean but it was full-time work, of course? R: Oh, certainly, it was. I: I wondered if he had any extra part-time jobs that you know of? R: No, no, as far as I know that was his full-time job, until he came to live here. I: When he became a gardener again, I believe? R: Yes, he became … well, planting trees. A landscape man. That's the right word for it. I: Did he continue in that work until he passed over? R: Yes for 28 years. I: Do you remember his ever being out of work? R: Never. No, no, that was, 28 years or thereabouts. I: How old was your mother when you were born? So your mother was about 32. Had she worked before she married your father? R: Oh, certainly she did. For 35 years she worked for in the City. I: What sort of work was that? R: I think it was tie-making, or something like that. You know, making ties when they made them by hand. And all the while she was there she never missed a Lord Mayor's Show. Well, it's off the river, see. I: Did she continue working after she was married? R: Oh, no. No, no, she finished work then. I: Did she ever go back to work at any later stage? R: No, not with a family like that. I: In your house where you lived in Maunder Road - about how many rooms were there in that house? R: Well, there could have been 3 bedrooms, and there's the and what we used to call the parlour, you know, kitchen and a scullery. Just an ordinary terraced house of those days. Coming up to 90 years old, those houses. I: Did you have one room that you kept as a special room, you know, a front room that wasn't used every day? R: Well, of course, in those days there was always what we call the front room. That was a Sunday room, I can't call it anything else. I: Only used to Sundays? R: Well, mostly on Sundays, you know. Every house had their front parlour and that was what it was used for. I: Did you have anyone like relatives, or lodgers, living with you? R: No, no, not with a family like that. I: So your mother didn't have anyone helping her? She did all the work herself, did she? R: Quite so. 'Course, as most of us chaps grew up, you know, we did our bit. I: Do you remember if your mother had a particular routine for cleaning the house; certain rooms on certain days, or anything like that? R: I can't tell you any particular routine, beyond washing day. You know what Monday is, don't you? Monday had to be washing day. And at 2.30, I don't remember her ever missing, her Mothers' Meeting in the afternoon. People talk about the amount of work they do today, but she'd do the washing for all of us on the Monday and in the afternoon she always had that free. I: And she always went to that? R: She went to her Mother's Meeting. They call it Mothers' Union, now, don't they? I: Yes. Did she make any clothes for the family? R: Well, so far as I know she did her best. Probably she made the under-clothes for us, for the kiddies, 'cos she had to buy the … you know, top clothes for all of us. I: Do you know where she bought the clothes? Were they from shops, or traders, or clubs? R: Well, I'll be quite candid about it. In those days everything had to be cheap. She used to go to a shop in West Ealing … I'll be quite clear about it … pawnbrokers and always, almost without fail … She couldn't help it, she hadn't got the money to spend. Secondhand clothes. That's all I can say about it. And that's how people lived in those days. I'm talking about the working class. I: Did she ever have any new clothes that she bought, or was it all second-hand? R: I can't tell you that. I: What about shoes? Were they secondhand, as well? R: Well to my knowledge. The recognised shoe shops that you see now in West Ealing were not there, so we had to get them at that particular shop with very few exceptions to my knowledge. So they were more likely secondhand, perhaps, than what they were new. I: In the household work, do you remember your father doing anything to help actually in the house? R: Well, no. I wouldn't say he did. He wasn't very good in the sense of the word. He'd got his outside interests which meant forty yards of allotment, it's quite a hefty job. We had 40 rabbits and 6 goats and his work outside all appertaining to us, you know, it all came into the house. He was pretty busy outside, we didn't expect him to ... I: To do things in the house. no. If there was a bit of decorating to be done, or repair work did he do that, or did your mother do that? R: Well, as far as I know the landlord used to do that, I don't remember that we had to do it in those days. We weren't expected to do it. I: Do you remember if he did anything actually for the children, I mean for you and your brothers and sisters in the way of putting you to bed, or dressing you or undressing you, reading you stories? R: No, I don't remember that part about it, but he didn't … he never … used to go out, you know. I: Well, he was very busy with his outside work, wasn't he? R: It was a 12 hour day, you know, 6 o'clock 'till 6 at the Council. By the time he got home at half past 6, half past 7, he was a tired man. I: Did you have any particular job that you had to do? I know you had to look after the goats. Was there anything else you had to do in the way of helping? R: Well, I well remember a regular job I used to do cleaning the forks and the spoons on a Saturday morning. Apart from that, well, I went out to work at the age of 12 1/2 you know. But a regular job, as far as I know that was my job on a Saturday, cleaning the forks and spoons. I don't remember anything other, particularly. I: What about the other brothers and sisters, did they have particular jobs? R: Well, you know, it was generally, 'do this' and 'do that' between the lot of us, I think. No I don't think they had anything particular. Most of them started work early, you know. My elder sister, well, she's 88 she went to work quite early, at that age we used to leave school at 12 and 13 and this, that and the other. And no question of you were going to stop at school 'till you were 18, nothing like that. We had to go out and earn those few shillings. I: When you were a schoolboy, were you expected to go to bed at a certain time? Were your parents particular about you being in and in bed? R: No, I don't remember any restrictions like that, but we were never far from home, you know, not after tea. I: Did you put yourself to bed and did you see to it that you got yourself to bed? R: Well, we all did as far as we were able, according to our ages. As soon as you might say, you know, off your mother's lap, you did for yourself. It didn't do us any harm. I: When you were a child, who did you share your bedroom with? R: Oh, I say (laughter) You're talking about a bed! I don't know, there were two at the top and two at the bottom. That was how they used to do it, you know. We had to work out our 3 bedrooms. There was my Mum and Dad and the rest of us (laughter)… I: And the rest of you in the two beds? R: Well, that was how people lived in those days, two or 3 at the top and 2 or 3 at the bottom. Oh, yes, yes. I: And what room did you have a bathroom in, because I know there weren't bathrooms? R: Well, I'll tell you the truth about the bath, we had a big round washtub. Friday, of course, had to be bath night and my mother had a hefty job. I: Where did she heat the water? R: On the gas stove, so far as I know. I think we had a gas stove then In any case they had what they call a kitchener, that's a kitchen range with a fire and the oven and all the top, to, heat the water on. I: Did you have clean clothes on a set day of the week, or anything like that? R: So far as I know everything was clean on a Sunday. Everybody had to be, you know, fitted up on a Sunday. My mother wasn't … what shall I say? She didn't force us into any church or any religion but we automatically fell into it, you know what I mean. I: I'd like to ask you some things about mealtimes in those days. Where did the family have their meals? R: Well, naturally, in the kitchen. I: Did you ever eat in any other room? R: No, not to my knowledge. I: You never ate in the front room? R: Unless we had a party of some sort, you know. I: You say that your mother had a kitchener and did she have gas at the same time as she had that, did you say? R: Well, I've forgotten now, to tell you the truth, but I expect we did. I don't think. I: Did you have breakfast in the morning? R: Always had breakfast because I had to go out to work. I: Could you tell me what you had in those days? R: Well it didn't go much past bread and butter in those days. I: Anything to drink? R: Well, the usual tea, you know. Tea or cocoa. I: And did you all have the meal together? What members of the family were there for breakfast? R: Well, of course, two … 3 of us used to {blank} used to go out at 8 o'clock in the morning which meant it left it clear for the younger ones to have theirs soon after 8. Soon as we were out of the way. 'Course, they had to go to school at 9 o'clock, you know. I: What about your father, did he eat with you older ones that had to go out? R: Well, me father, I told you. He started work at 6 o'clock in the morning at Ealing. He always took his breakfast with him. And dinner. I: What did he take with him for breakfast and dinner? R: Well, sandwiches, I suppose. I can't tell you any more. I: What about the midday meal? Did the family come home for that, the children? R: Yes, so far as I know we were all home, more or less, to midday meal. I: I remember you saying that your mother was good at cheap cuts, and that sort of thing. R: Well, couldn't get anything else. I: She knew hot to cook them? R: She had to cook them, of course. I: And in the evening did you have a meal together, the family? R: Well, I believe we did. Yes, I believe we were all at home together. I: What did you have then, in the evening? R: Not much past the old bread and butter {blank}, or bread and jam I: Yes, I know, that's what we want to find out. And you did have meat at midday, you said? R: Oh, yes, we had … mostly a stew, you know. Well, as you said, mostly the cheaper cuts. I: Did your mother ever make anything to have afterwards, a pudding or anything of that kind? R: Not, I don't remember a great lot about what you'd call afters. Sunday, of course, we had a cake. I: And did you have a different kind of meat on Sunday, or was it stew? R: Oh, we generally had a roast on a Sunday, or some such, you know. I: Did you have anything extra for breakfast on a Sunday, or was it bread and butter? R: Well, I tell you, we'd got no choice, you know. That's how they were brought up in those days. No, I don't remember anything else. I: Do you remember your mother making jam, or making anything like that? R: Oh, yes, she used to make a little bit of jam, but not a great lot. I: Did you have fruit trees in the garden? Or in the allotment? R: No. I: Just vegetables, were there? R: Yes. I: Do you know if she made any pickles or anything of that kind? R: Well, she what I call dabbled about with them when she could. Nothing in particular. I: Did your mother and father eat different food from the children? R: Never to my knowledge. I: They all had the same? R: Yes. I: Did they ever say Grace at meals? R: No, I don't think they ever did, but then, I suppose they may have done Well, when I say it made no difference, there was that difference. I: Could I ask you a few questions about behaviour at table, because customs have changed. Were you allowed to talk during meals. R: Well, there were no restrictions in our house. If my mother saw somebody misbehaving themselves, they had it! It didn't do us any harm I: You could choose, then, what you wanted to eat, could you? I: At meal, if she served up something you didn't fancy? R: Well, we were a good healthy crowd and we were glad to eat anything. I don't think we minded too much. I: And could you ask for more if there was more? R: If it was there. I: And you were allowed to ask for it? R: Well, my mother used to ask us. I: Was she particular about how you handled your knife and fork and spoon, and that kind of thing? R: Well, we had natural training, and expect somebody, you know … somebody went wrong at some time or other and she just told them where to get off. I: Were you allowed to bring a toy or a book, if you had one, to the table? R: Not to my knowledge, no. I: When could you leave the table? R: Well, we usually more or less all left together. I don't think we had any stipulated time, you know. I: Did you all have the same places? R: Generally, we got in the same place each day, you know. I: Could you tell me how your mother served the meal? R: Well, she used to serve it, far as I know from the centre of the table. You know what I mean to say. There were the 6 or 7 plates and she would go all the way round. I can't tell you anything else. I: When there were young children in the family, you know, at the stage where they still needed to be fed, were they fed separately from the rest of you, before you had your meal, do you remember? R: No, I think we were all there together. One would sit on Mum's knee and she would feed 'em with a spoon, or whatever. Oh, no, as far as I know we all had it together. I: Was your mother an easy person to get along with, to talk to? Did you find her an easy person to talk to? Were you close to her? R: She was very good. She was. I: How did your parents expect you and your brothers and sisters to behave towards them? R: Well, I'll tell you quite candidly about it. There was no real expectations of good behaviour. There was a crowd of us. Well, I tell you there were 7 of us. We were all more or less … you know …. I don't say perfect, but that's just how we used to treat our mother. We'd never cross her if we could help it. Oh, no, no. I: Suppose, say, you got into a bit of a fight with another child, or one of your brothers and sisters did, and the other child hit you, what would your mother or father say if you told them? I: Do you mean of the family? R: No, I mean another child at school. You know the sort of things that are happening all the time with children. R: We had our scraps and say nothing, unless we came home with a black eye, or something. 'Hallo, what have you been doing?', you know, when we used to come home. 'Well, I suppose you asked for it'. That was it! We didn't expect sympathy, no. I: But would they tell you, generally, in life, to hit back if you were hit, or to turn the other cheek, sort of thing? R: No, I don't remember them ever telling us that. We used to hit back, and that was it. R: You said they had no expectations of good behaviour, but what sort of things did they bring you up - even if it wasn't talked about - they must have brought you up to think certain things were important in life, worth caring about. Could you tell me something about what you think they thought was important in life. The important things about how you should live. I: Do you mean from a spiritual point of view? R: Yes, that sort of thing. And general manners and behaviour, and how to eat and everything. R: Well, I can't tell you too much about that. But my mother probably took it for granted that we learnt what there was to be learnt at school and it was naturally ingrained in us. Strictly speaking we'd been no trouble to her. I: When you did do something your parents disapproved of, did they punish you? R: Yes, my father had a strap, and I felt it (laughter) I: Did he use it often? R: Not a great lot, no. I: And your mother, would she punish you, too? R: Oh, she'd give us one of them; 'Oh, I hurt meself more when I hurt you'. That's what she used to say. That's what she used to say! I: Can you remember, as a family together, if there were ever things you did altogether? Did you all go out together, or do anything all together, all of you? R: Well, I don't know as Mum and Dad used to take us out a great lot for picnics, but we used to go out, generally, well … Churchfields over the way, there. If we'd got 2 or 3 bottles of water, or something like that and a few bits of bread and butter we were satisfied. That was our picnic. One day a year we'd manage a day down at the seaside. I: Would that be organised by your mother and father, or by some other …? R: Well, the St. Johns Temperance Society used to be in Ealing. They had their regular outings and …. Well, that was our holiday, that was. We didn't really have a holiday. I: And when you went on that St. John's Temperance outing, was it just the children, or did your mother and father go as well? R: Oh, my parents went with them, oh, yes, to look after them for the day. Yes, we could go down to Weston-Super-Mare for 4 shillings return in those days. I: What vehicle was that in? R: Great Western Railway. They'd charter a train. I: Do you ever remember being taken by your mother or father to visit friends or neighbours, or relations? Going out visiting? R: Oh, yes. We had relations the other side of London, in Camberwell. And they used to come to see us and we used to go to see them. I: How often would that be? R: That's be once or twice a year, perhaps. I: When they came, how long would they stay for? R: Well, if they came Christmas time - 'course, you could travel then on a Christmas day, which you can't do now - they'd come along, the family of, oh, somewhere about 5 or 6 youngsters, this, that and the other. Well, they didn't go home Christmas night. They laid all over the shop, you know what I mean to say. We used to call it. Well, we'd lay on the floor, put a spare mattress down, and they'd go home the next day. And they thoroughly enjoyed their Christmas round the old piano. I: You had a piano, did you? R: Sing songs, and that. Oh, yes. I: Who would play the piano? R: Well, 2 or 3 of them. I can't tell you exactly. I could play with one finger. I: How many were there? How many were these relations, do you remember? R: Oh, there'd be about 7, I expect. I: What relations were they to you? Was it your mother's side? R: My mother's brother. I: Did they always come to you at Christmas? R: Mostly always. Mostly always. I: And when you went there, did you also spend the night? R: Yes, yes, we did the same. I: I wanted to ask you if you remember your father taking an interest in politics at all? R: I don't think he ever did. I: And your mother? R: In those days, you know, they kept to their house, and that. Outside of their house. I: So you don't even know what his views were? What he felt about the government? R: No, I cannot tell you really. I: Do you remember your father going to watch sport, at all, or going to the races? That sort of thing? R: No, he wasn't interested in sport to my knowledge. Horse-racing and that, I: Did he do anything outside the home at all, other than the allotment? Did he have a club, or go to a club regularly? R: No, he didn't. he had his pint of beer on a Sunday, but that was all he had. No, no, he used to come home. I: And your mother? You mentioned she used to go to the Mothers' Meeting. R: Apart from that I don't think she ever had anything else. I: That was her main activity? R: Yes. I: And you, yourself were very keen on football, weren't you? Was there any other thing that you did in your spare time when you were still at school? R: We used to chase each other over the fields, play a game called Chivvy Chase in amongst the bushes, and that .. and we used to have paper chases I: You mentioned that you'd been active in the Hanwell and District Horticultural Society R: Well, say, Ealing and Hanwell Allotment Association here, so I … I: When was that? Was that after you'd started work? R: Oh, yes, yes. 1920, this was, after the War. I: You mentioned that you used to play with your brothers and sisters, did you play with other children, as well when you were a schoolboy? R: Oh, yes, we used to make up a couple of football teams. I: You used to have these relations who came to stay, did your mother and father ever have friends visiting them, and neighbours? R: Well, they used to go in and out each other's, you know what I mean to say. The next door neighbours and this, that & the other, but otherwise, you know what I mean to say, it was just a {blank} used to go out in those days, you know. I: Did they ever give the neighbours, or did the neighbours give your mother and father anything in the way of entertainment, say, like tea or music, anything like that when they came round? R: Well, if anyone could play the old piano, well, we'd have a sing-song, perhaps, but otherwise no. Just in the run of neighbourliness. It was quite good, too, in those days. Everybody knew each other and this was quite a short street and everyone knew each other. I: It wasn't a kind of organised social life? I mean, people would just drop in, would they? R: That's right. Nothing really organised. Well, we hadn't got the organised clubs then, in them days, you know, they weren't there. I: But you wouldn't say to somebody 'will you come round to my house on such and such a day', that sort of thing, would you? Would it be planned in advance? R: Oh, that could be quite a regular thing, I'm not disputing that, but that's not what I call organised parties. I: Was social life planned in a way? Was getting together with the neighbours planned on regular evenings or regular days people would get together? R: No, nothing really regular about it. They were just ordinary type of neighbourliness that used to go down very well. I: You were saying, when you were talking about conditions then, that you were what you would call a working class family. R: Yes. I: And what other classes at that time, how would you think that the other classes were? In England, then, around where you lived? R: Well, I can only explain it in one way. We had the working class, we had the middle class and we had the aristocrats. There were 3 types of people in those days. I: And in the area where you lived, did you come into personal contact with members of the middle class and the aristocracy yourself? R: Well, only because of my work, when I worked for the greengrocer’s shop. I used to go on my rounds, you know, and deliver goods to them, but otherwise … Well, there was that dividing line, we couldn't mistake it. I: What about in church activities, did you come across middle class people, or their children, at all? R: Well, I really got active with the church when I was about 17, I suppose and I belonged to a Church Institute, St. Mary's and I stayed there, I suppose, 50 years. And I was living this side of the parish and my feet were not too good, so I stopped going over there, and I've been associated with St. Thomas's ever since. St. Thomas's is just up the road here. I: And the people that you associated with in the first Church, St. Mary's I think it was, were they mostly working class people like yourself? R: Well, in that church you'll find that the people live mostly the other side of the parish, and I'd call them middle class. I: Do you remember being brought up to treat the middle class people differently from how you would treat the working class people? I mean, for example, do you remember being taught at school or at home to touch your cap, or say 'Sir', and that kind of thing? R: The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gates. No, I didn't recognise that! I tell you, I got mixed up with, I might say, the middle class people, that's what Hanwell consisted of, the other side of Hanwell and, well, I got along well with them. I treated them with respect because … well, one reason was this, I used to meet them every day and they were the customers I used to call on and that's just what you'd expect. But they never … they didn't mix up much with this side of the parish. This side of the parish is distinctly Hanwell, the other part is just that wee bit above I: Where you lived - in this part of the parish, wasn't it? - would most of the working class people who didn't have much money, were they much the same or was there quite a lot of variety in how poor people were? Was everybody much in the same boat? The working class is such a big... R: I know just what you mean; the poorer working class, and the others. Well, like every other town, I suppose, there were some of each. In those days there were recognised apprenticeships in most trades, you know, and they were just a step higher than the lower class ones. But strictly speaking you could find them all in Hanwell. Yes, you could find them all in Hanwell. I: And among your own neighbours that you dropped in on, were there all sorts? R: They were more or less like ourselves, Council workers, you know. At least, my father was. I: Do you ever remember at that time hearing anyone described as 'a real gentleman' or 'a real lady'? R: Well, there was that distinction at Hanwell. I met real gentleman and I met real ladies. Now, if I tell you candidly, although those different classes existed in Hanwell, I'll say so today which I'd hate to say so often. There are no snobs in Hanwell, not in Hanwell as it is. There are no snobs. I: So these people that you'd call 'real ladies', they weren't snobbish? R: Snobbish? No, no, they weren't. I: How would you describe a real lady, or a real gentleman? What are the qualities that for you mean a real lady or a real gentleman? R: Well, it's a job to describe them, really because I used to mix up with them, you know, in the course of my greengrocer's duties, but I could always pick out… well, they always treated me with the utmost courtesy and I always treated them the same. I can't tell you any more beyond that they, you know.. My idea of ladies and gentlemen, like, they'd got them over here, without being snobbish. I: Do you think the police at that time in Hanwell treated some people in the community different from others? Did they have a down on some people, do you think? R: No, no, no. They were the old, you know, plodding-the-beat-sort of policemen. Everybody knew each other. If they caught any of us doing wrong {blank} come along {blank} then we were satisfied. I: And you came into contact with them once yourself, I remember? R: (laughter) Yes, I did. Just the one Sunday afternoon. I: And he gave you a clip with his gloves. Did you ever see the landlord of the home that you had in Maunder Road? Did you ever come into personal contact with him? R: Yes. And what I remember he was Sidney Barnes, I think, the surveyor to the Hanwell Council. I believe he was the landlord. That's the best of my recollection, mind you, I'm not too sure. I: Do you remember how your parents and you considered him as a landlord, what your feelings were about him? R: Well, the landlord was the landlord, and that was it. He'd come along and collect the rent, and apart from that … well, I don't remember much else. No, we didn't expect much else. I: I think you said that your father passed over in 1914? R: 1914 it was, yes. I: What effect did that have on the family? I mean from a financial point of view? R: Well, we mostly had to live the best we could. Nothing else for it. I: How did you manage? R: There could have been about 3 or 4 of us at work, paying our usual quota, which was anything from 10 to 12/6 a week, something like that, that's how it used to be in those days, and …. Well, it wasn't too good. I: Did you ever get any help from anybody else, or any outside agency like the Guardians, that sort of thing? R: No. My mother had a dread of what they called The Parish in those days and so did most people. Do anything but, you know, keep away from The Parish, even though they were starving to death. Independence … well, you wouldn't credit it I remember my mother, she took over … well, it wouldn't be allowed, now without being registered … minding babies all day. Women that used to go out to work, they used to pay her so much, perhaps a shilling a day and that used to help her along. They'd come and bring them in the morning and they'd collect them at night and that's how she used to carry on … look after them for a few shillings a week I: How many babies would she have at one time? R: Anywhere from 4 to 6, I should imagine. She had her full day then. But she was glad of the money, and that was it. But now, of course, they have to be registered and all that. She wouldn't be allowed to do it now. I: When you were at school, were your parents interested in your school work? R: Well, they were naturally interested up to a point, you know what I mean to say. I can't tell you any more. They used to like to see us go from standard to standard. They used to work in standards then, you know. We had 7 standards in our school. You went from one to the other, well they were naturally pleased and that's … you know, as far as taking an interest in us… Well, parents' associations as we know them today didn't exist. I: Do you remember at the school if the teachers single out some children for different treatment from others, or did they treat you all the same? R: Well, I don't remember any real distinction. I: Did you have any children from a Union come into the school? R: No, what they call the scattered homes, they didn't exist in those days. I: Do you remember any children who were excluded by the other children? I don't mean by the teachers, but who were left out of things, sort of after classes, in the school? Or was it all quite friendly? R: No. Of course, that all depended on the teacher. You'd have certain boys, perhaps, 'he's one of Mr. {blank} good boys', and this, that and the other, you know, but we didn't take too much notice. We all got on very well. We had some jolly good teachers and they didn't treat us bad. If we wanted 6 of the best, well, we had 'em! (laughter) We didn't take too much notice. I: When you were working full time as a greengrocer, how did you get along with the other people you worked with? R: Well, there was 3 boys; we were all right. I: And your employer, how did you get along with him? R: Oh, very well. Very well. And the two daughters, oh, yes. I: Was it a family business, then? R: It was a family, yes. Opposite the Town … by the bus depot. I was there for 3 years. I: In the War did you go away? R: Yes, three years and a half; France and Belgium. I: What year did you go away, then? In '15? R: May. I: In 1915, May? R: Yes. I didn't actually go away, I was kept at home for training. '16, I went away. I: I think you said that your wife had been in domestic service before she married? R: Yes, that's right. I: And then she went back and worked at McLeans? R: Well, she went on war work in Cambridge Yard, you can almost see her here, making steel springs. That little factory is still there. And it was so unpleasant they used to come all … you know, the perspiration, and that, they were … oh, everything with iron mould, they couldn't keep any clothes on, you know. And then she went down to McLeans and I forget how long she stopped down there, but that got too much for her and she had to come home. Conveyor belts don't suit everybody, you know. I: Did she work before your first child was born? R: Yes, a little domestic work, go out to … go out in the mornings. Half a crown for a morning, disgraceful pay, but that's what they used to get. A long morning, too, I should think it was. Hard work at that, too. They hadn't got the Hoover cleaners then, you know. Oh, they had a rough time. I: It was a daughter first, wasn't it? The first child you had was a daughter? R: It was, yes, she was 52 years. I: After she was born did your wife go back to work again? R: I forget whether she took over …. domestic work or not, but I believe she used to take the baby with her. Oh, no, she used to leave the baby with my mother. My mother looked after the baby. I: What age was the baby when she first left her with your mother? R: Oh, quite a baby, 'cos I was at the War and she wanted the money. I: Were you at home when your daughter was born? Or were you at the War then? R: I was at home. I: How did your wife manage, did she have a doctor? R: Yes, she had a doctor and a midwife, an old friend of ours. A really good sort, she was. I: And can you remember at that time did she have any neighbours, or anyone coming in to help her? In the house, after the baby was born? R: Well, we had one really good neighbour, lived a short distance up the road, and we had one upstairs. Another really good neighbour. Downstairs, I should've said. She still lives there now, Oaklands Road, that's the second from here. I: And she used to help, did she? R: Well, you know, do …. they'd come in. Look in different times of the day, that's what it amounted to. I: How many years did you have together before you went off to the War? About 2 to 3 years, did you have? R: Oh, I was married in 1913. That would make 3 years. I: Did you help your wife in the house at all, or did you do gardening like your father? R: Well, I did the jobs that I thought I could do, and that was the main point about it. I: What sort of jobs did you do in the house? R: Well, usually washing up. If she wasn't too well, I'd carry on, that's all I can tell you. I: Did you do anything for the little girl? Did you look after the little girl in any way? R: Oh, if I could push her out in the pram, that was my delight, that was. I: You liked doing that, did you? R: I did, oh, yes. I was never too proud to push a pram. I: Did you and your wife talk about how you were going to bring her up and what the right thing to do was? R: After the war generations tended to marry younger and they more or less …. I: Are you talking about the First War now? R: After both Wars, and the man took over duties, at least in my estimation including pushing the pram, what you see today, what they didn't attempt to do before 1914. I: So you were exceptional at that time in pushing a pram, were you do you think? R: I won't tell you that, but in any case, that suited me (laughter). I: Did you still live in Hanwell? R: I've lived in Hanwell 79 years. I: So those rooms that you got when you got married, were they near where your mother's home was? R: Oh, no, no. They were over there. Not too far away. I: Did you keep up the same pattern of life as you'd had at home, dropping in with neighbours, and that sort of thing? Did you have neighbours in? R: Well, we naturally made the contacts, that was a recognised thing then. I: Did your wife's mother ever come and visit her? She was living in Wales, I believe? R: She lived at Bangor, North Wales, which meant that she couldn't come very often. We used to spend our holidays there. I: How long was that, that you'd spend there? R: Well, we only had a week's holiday in those days, you know and that was it. I: Did you go every year there, to Bangor? R: Oh, quite a number of years, yes. I: Did you and your wife had the same ideas about how to bring up children, and what was right for children, or did you differ on some points? R: Well, I don't remember differing at all. We naturally brought them up as we thought they would go, and that was it. I: But you agreed on what children should be allowed to do and shouldn't? R: Well, they turned out as perfect as ever any man can expect, and that's it. I can't tell you any more. We always went out together, the boy and the girl, and …. well, of course, there was 10 years difference between the boy and the girl, so that had something to do with it. But the fact remains we were all right. I: And when your wife had to leave the baby and go out to work, she left it, did you say, with your mother? R: Yes. I: Did it worry her that she had to leave the baby, or not? R: Well, there's no doubt that it did. She didn't like doing it, but she knew the baby was in good hands and it's that what counted. I: And you, yourself, did it distress you that she had to leave the baby, or did you feel the same as she did? R: Well, I'd got no option. I'd got to go out to work all day, and that was it. I: And after the war ended, did she continue working? R: No, she didn't. I: Did she ever go back to work at any other period in her life? R: No. No, she'd got the boy and the girl to look after, and that was it. I: And you yourself became a railway man R: Quite true, that was in 1920. I: Did you stay on in that work? R: Until 1956, yes. I: What occupation did your son have? R: Well, he was a rather scientific sort of a chap. He made up his mind to get mixed up with the electronic business. He went out at the age of 14 a place called Pullens, had a place in West Ealing, there, they've got the big firm, now, in the Gt. West Road, Brentford, and got a job there. Well, he stayed in that class of business. He got married and went to St. Albans to live. That's where he is today. He's working now for Marconi's which is quite a … they're in quite a big way, a branch of the General Electric. Yes, he's on the staff and so far as I know he's got a job for life now. Well, he's engaged quite a lot now in these giant computers, £25,000 each, you know. It's astonishing what there is in one of these computers. In any case, that's his life and that's it. He'll sit down and make you a television set over the weekend and not turn a hair. He made his first wireless set when he was 10 years of age. I didn't persuade him in any way. I said, 'You've got your life to lead, get on with it'. Well, he's got to make his way without my help. I: What about your daughter, what work did she do? R: Now the daughter, she went to W. H. Smith's bookstall for some years and then she went as a receptionist to an optician in Bond St., Ealing. Then she got married, and that was it. I: She didn't work after she was married? R: No. I: I wonder if you could also tell me what jobs your brothers had. I've got this bit of paper here. For example, there's Alf, what work did he do? R: Well, he started as a gardener and finished as a postman. I: Did he do anything in between? R: No, no, he just had those two. I: And George? R: George was a bricklayer. I: All his life? R: Well, he died at the age of 22, that's the unfortunate part about that. I: And Fred? R: Fred, well what I remember of him, he was in the West Ealing railway depot as a junior clerk. That's what I remember of him. I: And your sisters; is the first one written here Nell? R: Yes, that's right. I: What work did she do? R: Well, you see, there wasn't a great number of … choice much, in those days. It was either laundry or domestic service. Well, she went to work in Troy Laundry, West Ealing. That doesn't exist now, they pulled it down. I: Did she always do that kind of work? R: Yes, until she was married. I: And Jennie? R: Well, there's a big orphan school the other side of the parish, or used to be, belonging to the Borough of Southwark, the other side of London. Well, that's not in existence now, an L.C.C. estate's being built on it now, going to be a thousand houses over there, on the other side of the parish. Well, she was a laundry maid in that orphanage. I: Did she ever do any other kind of work, or was that all she did? R: Far as I know that was all she did. I: And Mabel, what did she do? R: Well Mabel, she stated down at Fairey Aviation works, down at Hayes, then she went nursing. Oh, she must have spent 30 years nursing, finished up as an maternity sister in West Middlesex Hospital, after a term at Hammersmith, Hammersmith Hospital. I: I meant to ask you about the kind of food that your wife and you had in those first few years you were married, you know, in the period up to before you went to the War. Did you have the same kind of food that you'd had at home, the same sort of meals? R: Well, no, we naturally lived better because there wasn't so many of us. Oh, no, we had quite a good variety. We had the usual, you know. We had a sweet afterwards. Oh, yes. Oh, no, there's no distinction, not with anyone in the family compared with some of them today. No distinction. We can't compare the two. I: For breakfast, for example, did you have more than bread and butter then? R: Oh, we went on to cereals. Oh, yes. Well, we had all the meals then, as I suppose, probably we have today. I: For tea, for example, what would you have, when you were first married? R: Well, there was always a knick-knack of some sort, you know. Salads, and … oh, yes, yes, there would be. I: Did you have any garden, or allotment, when you were married? R: Not when I was married in 1913. I: So you didn't have any means of growing anything to eat? R: No. I: And did your wife have a routine at all? I remember you said your mother had Monday washday, did your wife have a sort of housework routine that she followed? R: More or less the old routine in those days, you know, even at my daughter's you know, Monday has to be washing day for most people now. It never alters, ever. I: When you were married did you continue going to the same Church, St. Mary's, I think you said? R: Yes, I did. I: Did your wife attend the same one? R: She was Church of England so she'd come, well, quite a number of times. I started my little daughter there, she was about 3 years old when I took her over to the old parish church. I: You took her along to services, did you, your little daughter? R: I used to take her out, of course. I: She was very young to be taken. R: Never mind. She went and I used to take her. I: She could keep quiet? R: Quiet enough. She was no trouble. I: You mentioned how you used to have sing-songs round the piano. Did your wife play the piano or any musical instrument? R: She never had lessons, but she could always knock a tune out. That's the only way to put it. I: Did you have a piano in your first home? R: Yes, I had a piano. When my daughter got married I gave it to her. 
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